Kohei Saito’s Degrowth Manifesto: A nonviable solution to a misidentified problem

An obscure Japanese philosophy professor produces a surprise best seller, urging the world to slow down and shrink consumption via economic “degrowth.” Population Institute Canada’s president provides a critical overview.

by Madeline Weld

Until his book “Slow down: The Degrowth Manifesto” recently hit the market and became a surprise bestseller in Japan, I had never heard of Japanese philosophy professor Kohei Saito. That may not be surprising because I don’t travel in philosophy circles. But I’m given to understand that Kohei Saito was not a household name even in philosophy departments.

So why is a book he wrote making a splash even beyond Japan? Why is it getting reviews in widely read publications like the New Yorker and the Guardian?  My guess is that the greater public is becoming more acutely aware of the many global crises we face and is eager to consider any plausible proposal for a solution. Saito’s book purports to offer a path to rescue ourselves.

I have no arguments with Saito’s assessment that humanity is on a path to planetary ruination. A capitalism premised on continuous growth has an insatiable appetite that will not be satisfied until the planet has been fully stripped of any resources that can be bulldozed, mined, or blown out of the oceans. Saito is right that “green capitalism,” that is the use of  “green technology” and “renewable energy” to enable the continuation of our current growth trajectory, is a scam.

He is also absolutely correct and not the first to argue that GDP is a wholly inadequate measure of well-being. (And in fact GDP was never intended by its creators to become the be-all and end-all for measuring economic success.)

Numbers matter

But how are we going to arrive at a sustainable economy? This is where Saito and I part company. While he advocates for a more equal distribution of wealth, Saito has nothing to say about the size of the human population and how we will manage to share a shrinking and ever more ravaged pie with a consumer base growing by one billion people every dozen years or so. And he looks to Karl Marx for solutions.

In an article published on January 9 in Unherd with the title “Green Capitalism is a Con,” Saito writes: “the root cause of climate change is capitalism, and … our current way of life will not only lead to ecological collapse, but in doing so exploit the labour and land of the impoverished Global South.”

Inherent in that excerpt are at least two assumptions:

  1. Climate change is THE BIG PROBLEM, overriding all other problems, and is primarily driven by capitalism.
  2. Our current predicament is all the fault of the rich countries exploiting poor countries.

To whatever extent climate is being impacted by human activities (and there is more scientific debate about this issue than one would glean from the mainstream media), human numbers have a major impact. Those numbers are growing by natural increase only in developing countries, and most rapidly in the least developed countries. Population growth in industrialized Western countries is driven almost entirely by migration from lower-income countries and the newcomers are eager to adopt a higher-consuming lifestyle. New arrivals to Canada and the US on average increase their greenhouse gas emissions by a factor of four over what they were in their country of origin.

In addition, those in lower-income countries who don’t migrate are also eager to consume more, which means using more energy and producing more emissions. It is the combination of rising incomes and population growth in upper middle-income countries (as defined by the UN) that contributed the most to the increase in the total global ecological footprint (EF) between 1961 and 2016. It was “population growth that accounted for ~80% of the increase in the total human EF above what would have accrued had populations remained constant while income/consumption and per capita EFs increased” (Rees 2023, emphasis added).

Given continued rapid population growth in many impoverished countries whose people understandably would like to increase their consumption levels, any proposed path forward that doesn’t address population growth won’t take us to sustainability.

Regarding the second implicit assumption, there is no doubt that ecosystems in developing countries are being devastated in our quest for resources, and that labour, which often includes child labour, is being brutally exploited. The mining for cobalt in the Democratic Republic of Congo is perhaps the most notorious example. But it must be noted that destruction in the quest for resources is not limited to developing countries (think Canada’s tar sands) nor is destruction in developing countries limited to foreign corporations. A burgeoning impoverished population is ripe for exploitation under any system, not just capitalism (consider any pre-capitalist feudal system). Mass immigration from lower-income to Western countries, in which population pressure plays a significant role, has led to wage depression in receiving countries, especially among low-income earners. Furthermore, a burgeoning impoverished population itself impacts the local environment, through deforestation, overfishing, decimation of wildlife through habitat loss and bushmeat hunting, depletion of water resources, and pollution.

A global economy premised on forever-growth can’t help but be a juggernaut of destruction. But neither can a growing human population, a portion of whom already have high consumption levels and a far larger portion of whom would like to join them.

Salvation through Marx’s later writings?

This brings us to the question of how Karl Marx will lead us out of our cycle of environmental destruction and cheap labour exploitation. Saito believes that our salvation lies in Marx’s later writings, many of which were never published. Marx underwent a drastic theoretical shift towards the end of his life, Saito says, and realized that technological progress and productivism were not forces for the common good but destroying the Earth, creating an “irreparable rift” between humans and nature. Capitalism, wrote Marx, disturbed “the metabolic interaction between man and earth” and hindered “the operation of the eternal natural condition for the fertility of the soil.”

Saito disavows a return to the “dark communism of the Soviet Union or 20th century China” where production was nationalized by tyrannical one-party states and which he claims Marx never advocated. Saito advocates for Marx’s concept of “’the commons’ (equality of economic conditions) to steer a third way between the extremes of US-style neoliberalism and Soviet-style nationalism.” He argues that “certain public goods – such as water, electricity, shelter, healthcare, and education – should be managed and shared by every member of society, independent of markets.”

Following the handover of power to the people, per Saito, we would read and apply Marx’s Capital through a degrowth lens, move from an economy based on commodity value to one based on social utility (or use-value), prioritize the production of goods to respond to the “climate crisis” and stop producing unnecessary luxury goods and meaningless junk, all of which would lead to the elimination of “bullshit jobs” such as investment banking, marketing, and consultancy, and of capitalist extravaganzas such as same-day delivery and 24-hour supermarkets. This would liberate people from wage slavery and allow more time to devote to things like caregiving, education and leisure. “In this new system,” says Saito, “fulfilling material needs and improving quality of life will become a far more important measure than GDP.”

Is overconsumption due to capitalism the sole driver of the global crisis?

I agree with Saito that it is past time for GDP to be dethroned as the metric for economic performance and that much of the production under our current system is wasteful and environmentally destructive. But I can’t share his optimism that it will be possible to set up a viable system where all members of the public participate equally in managing water, shelter, healthcare and education. And that this can be done independently of markets – in other words, of the desires of the millions of individuals who make up a society.

How will millions of people who may have radically different views about healthcare and education and the ideal size of a house for a family of four come to an agreement? Who will determine whose vision prevails? And who would decide what is valuable and what is meaningless junk?

Old wine in a new bottle

All in all, Saito’s proposal sounds a bit too much like recycled communism to me. As a system, communism has failed, both in terms of delivering economic goods and valuing the rights and aspirations of individuals, in every single country in which it has been implemented. These failures dim my expectations of success for a communism re-imagined through degrowth.

When the late sociobiologist and myrmecologist, “ant man” E.O. Wilson was asked about communism, he said, “Great idea, wrong species.” Communism assumes a human nature that does not exist. We are not like a colony of ants. The slogan “From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs” does not account for slackers and cheaters nor for ambitious overachievers. It does not recognize self-interest and individual agency. Nor does it recognize that desires are not limited to material goods but can also be directed to achieving power and control. That is why totalitarianism has been a feature of every communist society so far.

Kohei Saito is right that the growth of the global economy must end and that green capitalism which aims to continue that unsustainable growth through “sustainable” means is a scam. He is right that that we need a metric that measures quality of life rather than the size of the economy. But his entire focus is on climate change when the world’s environmental problems are far more encompassing and the underlying cause of all of them is ultimately the size of the human population, which he ignores. And communism, regardless of how green its costume, is no solution. Therefore Saito fails to identify the problem, which is a human population in overshoot, and proposes a non-viable solution which ignores the reality of human nature.

Saito blames our environmental crisis entirely on capitalism. He is 37 years old (born 1987) which makes him a Millennial. Perhaps that is why his arguments seem little more than a remix of the standard arguments of today’s social justice left. By the same token, this could mean that those arguments will resonate among his global age cohort, which appears to have been indoctrinated to single out capitalism for all the ills in the world. This may even be one of the reasons for the popularity of his book. Unfortunately, the commercial success of this book is no guarantee that it can put humanity on the path to sustainability.

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32 responses to “Kohei Saito’s Degrowth Manifesto: A nonviable solution to a misidentified problem”

  1. Paul Scott Avatar

    Very good review of the book, saved me the time to read it. I especially enjoyed the EO Wilson quote. Had not heard that before and it’s beautiful.

    I do want to take issue, or perhaps get clarification, on your comment, “Saito is right that “green capitalism,” that is the use of “green technology” and “renewable energy” to enable the continuation of our current growth trajectory, is a scam.” Please explain what you mean, because I am a long-time population activist, going back to 1970, and for the past 20 years I’ve been an activist and advocate for renewable energy and electrification of our fleet. For you to insinuate that those are not viable, nor needed, is eye popping. When comments like that are made, people think it’s not necessary to stop using dirty electricity and gas-burning cars, the exact opposite of what they should be thinking.

    Millions of Americans buy new gas cars every year in spite of a variety of affordable electric vehicles that are better in every metric than their gas counterparts. We are on track to end all manufacturing of internal combustion by 2035. Let that sink in. In about 12 years you will not be able to buy a new gas vehicle anywhere in the world. Most folks are completely unaware that the end of internal combustion is coming so fast. The existing billion or so ICE vehicles will age out over the following decade. After that, the entire global ground transportation fleet will be electric and powered by an ever-greening grid. That’s less than 25 years from now.

    This is absolutely happening, but it could happen a couple years sooner. It’s been estimated that between now and the end of ICE, some 700 million new ICE vehicles will be made. That represents a lot of pollution, not to mention more money being spent for oil. This is why we are pressuring folks to stop buying new gas cars. Anyone who can afford a new gas car can afford an EV. If enough people get word that this is happening and just hold off getting that new Corolla, and instead find out which EV will work for them, figure out where they will charge it, and make it happen as soon as possible, we can accelerate the transition.

    Keep in mind that when new gas cars are no longer being made, everyone who buys a new vehicle will have to buy an EV, even MAGAs. You can’t force anyone to be vegan, but we can, and will, force everyone to drive EVs. This point needs to be appreciated more.

    So please maybe explain what you mean by “green energy and technology” being a scam, because it most assuredly is not.

    1. PHILIP CAFARO Avatar

      Paul, I think what Madeline is saying is that deploying new technologies and electrifying cars and other things can be part of creating sustainable societies, BUT, they can also serve as excuses for us to avoid moving beyond growth.

      1. Paul Scott Avatar

        I honestly cannot envision any scenario where it is better to keep burning fossil fuels and funding the worst people on Earth, than to fully implement renewable energies and transition our entire global transportation to clean electricity. If someone believes they can continue being wasteful because the energy is from renewable sources, then that person will at least be causing less harm. Isn’t that the better outcome?

        I’ve seen other people say that we shouldn’t switch to EVs because we need to get rid of all cars and going electric will only encourage people to keep private automobiles. They don’t have a plan for getting these people to stop buying cars, they only puff out their chests and proclaim the moral high ground while nothing is done to get people to stop buying cars. That moral ground is worthless as long as you have no idea how to convince people to stop being wasteful consumers. We can’t even convince 71 million Americans that Trump was a bad president. How are you going to convince those people to stop buying giant houses, giant gas vehicles, and having 6 kids? You can’t. At least when we kill the ICE industry, we can force them to stop burning gasoline. And once we completely replace fossil fuels on the grid, we force them to use clean energy.

        Never – ever – make the perfect be the enemy of the good! We are absolutely on track to completely rid our economy of oil, coal, and gas. Telling people that EVs and renewable energy are a scam is dangerous and makes the writer look ignorant.

    2. Madeline Weld Avatar

      I like that E.O. Wilson quote too! It’s clever, short and accurate. What I meant in the sentence you cite in the second paragraph is just what it says, as Phil Cafaro notes in his reply. Growth is unsustainable, and using renewable technology to enable growth is in the long run no more sustainable than using fossil fuels. It’s what Dr. Bill Rees has referred to on several occasions as “business as usual by other means.” It’s business as usual (growth) that can’t go on. It is however also true that no technology is without an environmental impact. The extraction of some of the materials used for electric cars is also environmentally destructive and often involves the use of fossil fuels. No matter how environmentally virtuous we try to be, we can’t reduce our footprint to zero. But we can move toward a smaller population.

  2. . Avatar

    The issues of Degrowth and Overpopulation are linked. Capitalism and denial of Overpopulation are connected. It is those that want further growth are the ones who want the population to grow.
    Note the article by Monir Ghaedi in November 27, 2022. ( sorry I don’t have the exact citation ). Who quotes African bankers and says Africa needs grow it’s population
    Aroop Mangalik

    1. Madeline Weld Avatar

      Unfortunately, it’s not just capitalists who deny overpopulation. Marxists do a pretty good job as well, arguing that concerns about population growth are racist, colonialist, and blame poor brown and black women for the overconsumption by the rich. In fact, and shockingly, even the UN Population Fund (UNFPA) has entered into population denial, as I wrote in a previous article on this site (https://overpopulation-project.com/the-united-nations-population-fund-promotes-population-denial/). Then there are an astonishing number of people who are unaware of the population issue or believe in the demographic transition theory, which posits that birth rates automatically drop as people become wealthier and we don’t have to worry. Unfortunately, that is not panning out in sub-Saharan Africa and some other countries outside that region. If the DTT had been correct, the global population would not have been increasing by one billion people every 11-14 years for the last 70 years.

  3. gaiabaracetti Avatar

    I never expected to see climate change denialism here of all places! I’m a little shocked.

    This article and at least one of the comments seems to me too US-centric. There’s so much that goes on around the world that people in America, especially, seem to not know about or refuse to acknowledge.
    There are many alternatives to (supposedly) free-market capitalism other that “communism”. Many societies have redistributive and welfare systems that work quite well without being totalitarian or stifling the aspirations of individuals. Europe has many examples that work, as much as anything human can work. The absolutely obscene amounts of wealth some individuals are accumulating are incompatible with any real environmentalism. We could start with taxing and redistributing those.

    Paul, there’s plenty of evidence that powering an industrial civilisation with green energy, not to mention expanding it since billions of people in the world want access to it, is a delusion at best, even worse than doing it with fossil fuels at worst. There’s too much evidence to summarise it in a comment but the damages and costs associated with renewables of any kind are well-known – and this is even before we switch to them abandoning fossil fuels. They are already causing problems now, imagine scaling them up to the extent your project would require! Renewables are part of the solution only in a de-growth setting, not in a business as usual setting.
    I’ve already addressed this with you in another comment section and you ignored all I said. It sounds like you just want to preach the EV gospel. But private cars are awful, they are polluting and wasteful no matter what powers them (tire and break pollution can amount to almost half of the total pollution), they use insane amounts of materials and energy (we’re talking about moving an individual by using a machine that weighs ten times as much), they disfigure our cities, isolate our lives, kill people and millions of animals a year (there’s data about this), take up an enormous amount of space even when idle and make us lazy.
    Again, look at other countries, even wealthy ones; places where biking, walking and using public transport is the norm. Very few countries are as car-obsessed as the US; my country, Italy, is one of them and it’s awful. Other countries are smarter and moving around in them is cheaper, easier and less dangerous.
    Private cars for all humans is madness and will go away when fossil fuels do, which might be pretty soon.

    1. Madeline Weld Avatar

      It would be an error to refer to any questioning of the current climate change narrative as denialism. No one is denying climate change, but some scientists with strong credentials are questioning the contributions that human activities make to it. I see no problem with that: despite what we hear in the media, science by its very nature is never settled. When one declares questions about the validity of a hypothesis unacceptable, one is no longer doing science. A question that concerns me about the current narrative is the fact that in pre-human eras, high CO2 levels didn’t always coincide with warmer temperatures.

      Whatever the impact of human activities on climate, the subject is highly politicized. Both Phil Cafaro (https://overpopulation-project.com/climate-refugees-or-overpopulation-escapees/) and I (https://populationinstitutecanada.ca/ever-the-unacknowledged-elephant-in-the-room/) have written about how every problem is somehow made into a climate problem. For example, while UN chief Antonio Guterres waxes nearly hysterical about climate change, calling it global boiling (https://www.reuters.com/article/climate-change-july-un-idUSO8N38I00H/), he dismissed concerns about a human population of 8 billion and growing as “alarmism” (https://overpopulation-project.com/the-united-nations-population-fund-promotes-population-denial/). But if climate change is in fact driven by human activities, the billions of poor people are going to have a tremendous impact as they understandably strive to increase their consumption. Why does population remain a taboo subject while climate change becomes the only issue? That is political!

      I wasn’t trying to suggest that free-market growth-forever capitalism and communism were the only possible alternatives. There have been many others in human history. It’s just that my article was focussed on Kohei Saito’s proposed solution to our predicament. I hope there is a free-market steady state economy alternative that we can reach by shrinking the population faster than the economy contracts, so we don’t all feel impoverished. (This is not to suggest that I think it’s going to happen.)

      I’m actually located in Canada, but we are just as car-centric as our US brethren. Public transport is definitely a desirable goal and works well in cities or between sufficiently densely populated centres. Alternative forms of transport can be effective. But neither work so well in rural and suburban areas. And as population growth in Canada and the US continues to be driven through immigration, we will see more sprawl and more use of cars. No city has grown (no matter how “smart” the growth) and not sprawled. NumbersUSA has conducted several studies that show that population growth, especially in recent decades, is the major contributor to sprawl in the US (https://sprawlusa.com/).

      1. gaiabaracetti Avatar

        I agree with most of this, except for a couple of points. It’s perfectly possible to live in a rural setting without a car: I did it in a very small village in the Alps for years, using public transport and a (borrowed) electric bike. Or just walking. Riding, even. Horses on a large scale are not sustainable but an infrastructure that accommodates for them on occasion would be very useful.
        As for climate change, I think the consensus is as solid as anything in science can be. I don’t really see the point in questioning it further; every time you dig, these scientists who are questioning the consensus are either not actually competent in the fields, or have some lobby connection (often both).
        I do agree that reducing every environmental problem to climate change is wrong; it might be occasionally useful as a proxy for human impact, but it’s mostly a matter of trying to push business as usual – “we’ll just switch everything to electric / compensate emissions, and we’ll be fine”. No we won’t.

  4. David Polewka Avatar

    EVs Could Damage Roads Way More Than ICE Cars Due to Weight
    By Gustavo Ruffo, 29 Jun 2023, autoevolution
    Several people are concerned about the weight of battery electric vehicles (BEVs). Their massive battery packs may represent a higher risk of serious injuries and death in crashes. In April, the British Parking Association warned that old parking buildings could fail if BEVs became the industry standard. A while later, a parking building in New York collapsed just due to the higher weight of modern cars. The Telegraph sorted out another danger posed by the added mass BEVs present: damages to roads, increasing the number of potholes.

    The British newspaper used a known method that highway engineers frequently apply in their studies. The idea is that any weight increase in an axle of a vehicle raises the damages to the road to the fourth power – hence the formula’s name. The Telegraph then used a study from the University of Leeds that calculated the mass of 15 popular BEVs in the United Kingdom. The research revealed that electric cars are 312 kilograms (688 pounds) heavier on average than comparable vehicles powered by gasoline engines.

    With that information, the British newspaper calculated that BEVs could expose roads to 2.24 times more damage than gas cars. As diesel vehicles are slightly heavier, the stress rate drops to “only” 1.95 more damage than they usually cause. Curiously, the UK is facing an old pothole crisis that created Wanksy – an artist that drew penises on these road damages to get them fixed. If he was still active, he could have prevented Rod Stewart and some friends from grab the bull by the horns and fixing roads close to their homes on their own. That is happening with the current fleet, which the UK government wants to become fully electric in a few decades.

    According to The Telegraph, main roads and highways may not be seriously affected because they were designed to deal with trucks and buses. Although the British newspaper did not mention that, I suppose more heavy vehicles should accelerate their decay. The real danger with the higher mass of BEVs is on smaller residential and rural roads. They can crack under these hefty vehicles and degrade rapidly if most of the fleet is comprised of them.
    [ . . . . ]
    https://www.autoevolution.com/news/bevs-could-also-damage-roads-way-more-than-ice-cars-due-to-weight-217255.html

  5. Hugh Cornwell Avatar

    I would like to congratulate Madeline Weld, as well as all the other contributors to “The Overpopulation Project” over the last couple of years, for the breadth of the topics covered, for the authors’ individual insights, the depth of their arguments and the high quality of their writing. Anticipating the receipt of a contribution, from such a panel of remarkable thinkers and authors, is a pleasure that I look forward to with eager anticipation, while their work on arrival is a joy to receive, which never disappoints.

    The contributions from their sternest critics, who are regular interrogators in the “Comments” section, are also to be applauded for metaphorically holding “everyone’s feet to the fire”, no matter how uncomfortable . . . even if sometimes a trifle unfairly.

    All of us, whether contributors, critics or simple readers, like me, share an intellectual interest, and an emotional concern, about about the exponential increase in the human population, during our lifetimes, and the deleterious impact that this has had on the natural world and on the “inequality of life” for the majority of people living today. There is incontrovertible evidence of the first assertion, while the latter simply requires one to put oneself in the shoes of anyone other than a member of the global elite (1%) or of the aspiring global middle class (20%).

    What I find both perplexing and frustrating is that the observations of such a clever, and well intentioned, group of people has gained so little traction amongst the world’s political leaders, in the ranks of United Nations administrators and with influencers worldwide in the media and in the halls of academe.

    The contributions are cross-disciplinary and, it is therefore likely that, the contributors have peers and colleagues throughout a wide cross section of society represented in the “Developed World”. Perhaps we should be asking the founders of “The Overpopulation Project” to step outside their own specialisms and consider how to market, or “network” if that is more comfortable concept, the contributors and their work to a wider and larger audience ?

    1. PHILIP CAFARO Avatar

      Hugh, thanks for the kind words about our efforts at TOP. It’s good to know you find these posts interesting and thought provoking. We are indeed interested in “marketing” our ideas to the widest possible audience, and seeing them come to fruition politically. That’s part of our goal — although I don’t think anyone associated with TOP has a fully worked out blueprint for what a sustainable society would look like. I would say, as a start: “a lot different than the ones we live in today, and with a lot fewer people”!

      That’s why I found the Saito book so interesting. Like other degrowth proponents, he is willing to consider drastic economic changes to achieve sustainability. But there is literally no discussion in it of population. The word isn’t even in the index. But the prospects for degrowth are much better with smaller populations than with larger ones. It’s particularly surprising for a Japanese scholar to ignore population issues, when they are so front and center in Japan.

      1. gaiabaracetti Avatar

        Maybe that’s why: Japan is already reducing its population spontaneously, and no matter what the government does, the birth rate stays low.

    2. David Polewka Avatar

      In 1975, I appeared on a WBZ-TV Speak Out message, saying that we should
      stop immunization. In 2002, the New York Times published my letter stating
      that we should stop making flu shots.
      https://www.nytimes.com/2002/11/19/science/letters.html
      Today, I’m saying we should stop making flu, MMR, and Covid shots, to shorten
      the average life span by a few years. No one likes it, and that’s why the
      political leaders won’t touch it, but the good news is that you don’t have to
      like it, you just have to accept it!

      1. gaiabaracetti Avatar

        No one likes it because it’s horrible. There are much better ways.
        Also, countries with high infant (and general) mortality also tend to have high population growth.

  6. blakeley2012 Avatar

    I would go a bit farther than Madeline’s excellent review concerning the relation between capitalism/communism/socialism and environmental impact: There is no relation. All such systems are socio-economic ones dealing with our intra-generational relations. There is no necessary connection between any of them and inter-generational justice or justice towards other animals. A communist or heavily socialist regime can grow grow grow just like capitalist ones. I do not believe capitalism is ‘predicated’ on growth, or that it has a ‘growth imperative’. (I’m using growth in both senses, in terms of throughput and in terms of GDP.) On my definition of ‘capitalism’ it is perfectly compatible with a steady-state, sustainable, non-growing economy.
    Could I remind everybody of Herman Daly’s brilliant analysis into Scale, Distribution and Allocation? Set the scale of throughput democratically, guided by science. Distribute purchasing power relatively justly with maximum and minimum incomes. Then let private ownership and free trade do the rest. The environmental problems are solved with the first measure (Scale), whether it’s water, energy, minerals or pollution (including climate change). Do some re-distribution, then for god’s sake just let people do their thing freely.
    Thanks for listening, Blake Alcott, Zürich

    1. gaiabaracetti Avatar

      Put simply, I don’t think you can have capitalism with industry (that’s what the capital is for), and industry without borrowing and lending (very few people can start business without it). Industry takes raw materials and turns them into products, which will eventually be thrown away, and waste, which cannot be recycled 100%. It is intrinsically unsustainable. Borrowing and lending, which are necessary for investment, require economic growth.
      I don’t like this “capitalism is the source of all evil and without capitalism we’ll be fine” line of thinking, but I don’t see how a system based on industrialism and finance can ever be sustainable and no-growth.

      1. Blake Alcott Avatar

        Thank you, Gaiabaracetti,
        But you can certainly have industry in a socialist or communist system – with or without borrowing and lending, as the system has, does and will save and invest what it thinks right. So again, there is no necessary connection between throughput growth and capitalism. And: I have no idea how many people can live at what level of consumption of goods-and-services (which is not the same as material-energy throughput) because who knows what technology will come along? But I do (claim to) know that Herman Daly’s scheme of democratically setting limits on throughput (of all sorts of substances, and energy), taking care to at least some degree of unjust differences in purchasing power, and leaving the rest to happen freely and decentrally, works by definition. Maybe as Arne Naess claimed not more than a billion humans can live here sustainably. At any rate, not 8 billion+, which is the much-needed thrust of this Overpopulation Project. Thanks.

  7. Stable Genius Avatar

    Good one, Madeline. Especially poignant, coming from “liberal” Trudeau Canada, which is even worse than Albanese Australia, in terms of its punitive and repressive immigration levels.

    You can see why Saito is a bestseller, and you’re not. You’re not telling the status quo what it wants to hear, are you? The “correct” line is that green growth and UN “net zero” will fix it. That evidence-based stuff about the Ecological Footprint, who cares?

    1. gaiabaracetti Avatar

      Saito is against growth, not in favour of “green growth”.

      1. PHILIP CAFARO Avatar

        Yes, that’s part of what is so interesting about the Saito book. It is a best seller that doesn’t toe the majority line. I think obvious severe ecological decay is leading more people toward a willingness to question conventional economic ideas.

        The issues Blake and Gaia are batting around are important, and Saito develops his own answers to them. But I think he spends way too much time rummaging around in Marx’s texts for the answers, rather than grounding his analysis more fully in today’s empirical realities.

        I agree with Blake that Herman Daly’s framework is helpful for imagining a non-authoritarian political economic system that preserves much of the best of what we have now while making the system sustainable. Given the need for strong controls on material throughput and extensive and perpetual wealth redistribution, Herman’s system would be fairly socialistic, or social democratic. As I think it would need to be to keep some sort of market capitalism within ecological bounds.

        I share Gaia’s skepticism, though, that any industrialized economy actually can be sustainable. It’s a long shot, for sure.

    2. Madeline Weld Avatar

      Thank you, Stable Genius. It seems that neither Trudeau nor Albanese have much concern for the well-being of their own citizens, many of whose lives are being devastated by a housing crisis and the negative impact of an influx of cheap labour. Why does growing the population and the economy remain the prime objective when it not only fails to advance, but actually hurts the well-being of their citizens? Seems Canada and Australia are neck and neck in a race for the gold medal in stupidity.

  8. Edith Crowther Avatar

    Too much “left brain” dominance here and elsewhere. The left brain seeks solutions and certainty. It is optimistic to a delusional degree. The “right brain” is gloomy and doubtful – it sees the bigger picture. The bigger picture rarely looks good, and often looks so bad that the right hemisphere declares there ARE no solutions. This “negativity” never “sells” – whether we are in the Stone Age or 2024 – and the “left brain” certainly doesn’t like the sound of it. [Mine included.] However, the “negativity” always proves to have been correct – from the Late Bronze Age collapse (or earlier occasions) to our present collapse (which has unfolded just as Malthus predicted, with a few slight hiccups created by techno-fixes which have been only temporary and indeed have made things worse, overall).
    The left brain sees current adventures to the Moon as either piles of valuable minerals or massive human ingenuity or both. The right brain has an awful tendency to picture them as a terminal heroin addict resorting to blood vessels in the inner thigh, having destroyed more accessible ones (whilst, within that, being both ingenious and profitable – but only within the sordid bigger picture, which can be summarized as trying to survive life-threatening addiction). Jesus, whether he was just a real human or the son of God, always saw the bigger picture – hence “What shall if profit a man if he gain the world and lose his soul?” – amongst scores of similar observations. The Old Testament is similarly “right brain”, and possibly more so. No wonder both Books have declined in popularity with increasing speed since 1800.
    Madeline Weld was courageous enough to write a short article in February 2016, praising Malthus on the occasion of his birthday (13 or 14 February), for a Montreal paper. In it she quoted Paul Ehrlich’s recent comment that we are turning the planet into a “feedlot for humanity”. This comment deals neatly with the delusion that clever agriculture, going vegan, eating insects, etc. etc., can provide a solution. It also dispatches the notion that any political system devised by us could even begin to work. The word “feedlot” strikes a chill worthy of an Old Testament prophet – all of whom look like Ehrlich (in my imagination), with his piercing blue gaze. And a chill is most welcome on a warming planet, in my opinion. Everyone is overheating – including well-meaning proponents of this or that “solution”.
    Meantime, I wish E.O.Wilson were still alive, because I wonder if he might agree that any species can take over whole regions of the Earth and destroy them and along with them its own life support system. Even ants could, or some species of ant could – given the opportunity. We are seeing increasing instances of “vermin” species, where one species of animal or plant becomes unnaturally dominant (due to lack of predators and general ecological imbalance). It is my firm belief that any hardy species could become dominant in a toxic way, if the ecological balance is disturbed. We have just seen the first photo of a lone orca killing a shark – usually orcas hunt in packs, but both orcas and sharks are becoming short of food sources, as are human fishers. On a smaller but no less dramatic scale, invasive plants are causing havoc in nations where thousands of native species once lived in a complex harmony which deterred invaders, but have now vanished. Governments waffle endlessly about “Diversity” – but without Biodiversity of native fauna and flora, they are goners and so are their ever so “diverse” citizens.
    In short, all these “solutions” deny that humans are now a vermin species – not individually, but collectively. Yet when I converse with humble folk, in terrible factory jobs or intensive agriculture, they often say something along these lines. They are on the front line, you see. The truth is not deniable there. Ask the “binmen” as we call them in England (or any type of Waste Disposal Operative anywhere in the world). [I suppose binMEN is now illegal – but I have not yet heard binPERSON, though chairPERSON is now quite common.]
    YET – even on the front line and in full acceptance that we are vermin, humans still have babies. What else is there? It is not as if NOT having babies would solve anything, because nothing will. So provided you think your baby or babies have a chance, you will have them. Look at Gaza – you would think those lovely people would have stopped producing wonderful babies years ago. Au contraire. Because the grimmer life gets, the more miraculous and beautiful a baby is, and even a short life is better than none. A baby says something no man-made artefact could ever say – it says “Blessing”, in English and Hebrew and Arabic and Greek, and no doubt many other languages around the world. There is no question of a vermin species NOT reproducing, unless its physical environment removes all sources of food and water – because each member of that species is an individual and a Blessing.
    In the end, population explosions of any species crash, due to exhaustion of its life support systems – and this is what we must wait for in the case of humans, hoping that some will survive to start a future population explosion from scratch. The survivors form a Remnant – but this Remnant will not survive if too much of its life support system is permanently destroyed. At one time it was thought only nuclear war could destroy everything for humans (and many other species), but now we realize that pollution and desertification could too.
    Whatever happens, this is the only choice – between only a Remnant of us surviving, or no-one at all surviving. And I am not sure “choice” is the right word – how much choice do even the Superpowers of this world have? It strikes me that even they have lost Control, and Control does seem to be an illusion after a certain point. The word “control” comes from Medieval Latin contrarotulus “a counter, register,” from Latin contra “against” + rotulus, diminutive of rota “wheel”, to which the word “roll” as in “roll call” or “electoral roll” is connected. Contra-Roll apparently comes from a medieval method of checking accounts by a duplicate register, just as scientists have a “control” experiment to check the main experiment against. Control is central to all machine systems – but Control of living things is not so easy. Yes you can control a willing horse, or a willing human, or the plants you grow. You can even control the genes of animals and plants (and humans too, increasingly). But even with machines, and certainly with living things, Control has a tendency to backfire if it goes too far – thus leading to complete loss of Control.
    Most humans are good at SELF-Control, once they get past the toddler stage. But they can lose Self-Control quite dramatically in certain circumstances, and this is well-documented, both for individuals and for crowds and even for whole societies. Leaving aside Control of the Self (always more achievable), I think humans are slowly losing Control over everything else, although initially that Control brought many good things including law and music and beautiful art and architecture and great medicine. Best of all, perhaps, Control has wrought stunning gardens and landscapes, instead of “an unweeded garden …. [where] things rank and gross in nature possess it merely” (Hamlet, in a bad mood, but he has a point).
    I do hope all those looking for Ways to regain Control will find one Way or more – but it seems unlikely that they will, to me, now that we have gone too far. Not only have we got to the very edge of the precipice, but the bit we are standing on is crumbling and about to subside. “Subside” can also mean to calm down, as in a storm or other frenetic activity subsiding. So it won’t be ALL bad – but a lot of it will, and this is why everyone insists there has to be a Solution, somewhere.

    1. gaiabaracetti Avatar

      Both Israel and Gaza show how if you try to exterminate a people, higher birth rates usually follow. It’s a natural response.
      There’s a beautiful passage in Jonathan Safran Foer’s ‘Eating Animals’ in which his Jewish grandmother, who survived the Holocaust, greets his birth with the words: “this is my revenge”.
      Another good reason to try to not commit genocides.
      Lower birth rates are a much better way to bring the human population down, anyway.

      1. Edith Crowther Avatar

        The faster a vermin species multiplies, the sooner it crashes. If it uses some form of birth control to slow down or even reverse its proliferation, the longer it will continue to ravage its environment and the habitats of other species (plant or animal). The length of time a really damaging species remains operational is crucial. I think for humans, the sooner we crash the better – and that means not using Birth “Control” as a means of controlling ….. what? – nothing at all, ultimately. I don’t think governments should collect our garbage either, on the same principle – we will only stop creating it when it is piling up on our own doorsteps. It is the same with migration of vast populations from the terminally overpopulated Global South to the Global North. No-one is going to be able to stop this until it becomes so frightful that it starts to destroy both its host and eventually itself, like a parasite that has failed to live symbiotically but has run amok and started to devour its life support systems. Of course all humans are parasites devouring their own life-support systems, it is not just migrants. Migrants are just the first wave of parasites that have destroyed their own nation’s capacity to sustain them because prosperity and better health have created too much Demand and not increased Supply to the same extent.

  9. gaiabaracetti Avatar

    The pretty green area in this picture will soon be covered with 12 hectars (30 acres) of solar panels: https://www.change.org/p/blocchiamo-il-progetto-del-parco-fotovoltaico-a-leonacco-basso-ud?signed=true
    Like I said, the transition to renewable energy, all else being equal, might be even worse than the status quo. This is just one tiny example. I just signed the petition to stop it, though it probably won’t.
    In the village where I used to live in the mountains, the pebbled staircase that was the only pretty thing left will be removed and replaced with asphalt to make room for parking lots and make it easier for cars to drive through.
    I hope I will see the day when we abandon the folly of private cars. Degrowth is definitely the direction we should move in – both people and consumption. The abominations I just mentioned will take place in areas with no demographic growth – so it obviously need to be both.

  10. Erik Avatar

    Saito seems to be making the same mistake that a lot of leftists (and I would count myself as being quite left-wing in most ways) do, namely blaming capitalism for every conceivable problem and injustice in the world. It’s not that there isn’t plenty of things to criticize capitalism for, but there are also a lot of aspects of human behavior and the fundamental nature of reality that remain constant regardless of which economic system is in place. I think it’s plain wrong to blame climate change entirely on capitalism – the real cause is our massive and highly resource-intensive industrial civilization. The crux is that humans inherently need to consume various resources to survive and thrive, and the higher the standard of living the more resources are required. Even if the whole planet were to switch to Full Communism overnight the problem of climate change would still be very real. This is also why population size is an issue, as the equation essentially goes “population size x standard of living x sources of energy = environmental impact”. Getting rid of money and corporations wouldn’t change the fact that people are going to have to get their food and energy to heat their homes with from somewhere.

    1. Edith Crowther Avatar

      Very truthful. I understand that people lie in the form of “white lies” – in order not to upset others, which is a very decent and kind motive. I do it a lot myself, in other fora. I do not want to upset good kind people who still think being good and kind will solve the problem. I do wish, though, that people would read the Bible properly. It does not say that kindness will solve anything, at any point from Genesis through to Revelation. Loving your neighbour is a local commandment – your neighbour lives nearby. obviously, not more than 50 miles away as with Samaria and Judea. The commandment cannot be a substitute for the commandment to love God, only an adjunct to it. In 2024, Christians have declared that our “neighbour” can live on the other side of the world. And that loving him or her, comes before loving God – who may not even exist, especailly as He has issued some other commandments which are not politically correct at all. No, No, No, and NOOOOOOO.

  11. Dag Lindgren Avatar

    Industry, Capitalism, Market Economy, Worker Unions etc want to sell. To appear Green, one character or a few characters is often in center and less about others less green aspects. E.g. electric sells. But they want to sell much so the investment and maintenance costs of electricity is not considered in advertisement calculations, not even that electricity if often made from fossil fuel. And no reason to mention other relevant factors . Like life cycle environmental effect of vehicle including manufacturing, maintenance, roads and not just fuel. Similar for all products. Green but not so green at a closer look! Greenwashing!

  12. […] answers to this question are all correct; here in this space two weeks ago, Madeline Weld provided trenchant criticisms of Saito’s preferred approach of “degrowth communism.” But Saito lays out the issues clearly […]

  13. NoSecret Avatar

    Marx: Bevölkerungsgesetz / Populationsgesetz der kapitalistischen Produktionsweise

    Es gibt ein Bevölkerungsgesetz der kapitalistischen Produktionsweise:
    Die Akkumulation von Kapital führt zu einer wachsenden Nachfrage nach Arbeitskräften/Personen und Verbrauchern.

    * Produktion von Lohnarbeitern + Arbeitslosen und Konsumenten -> Überbevölkerung:

    Das Kapital MEW 23

    Das allgemeine Gesetz der kapitalistischen Akkumulation 640

    1. Wachsende Nachfrage nach Arbeitskraft mit der Akkumulation .. 640
    3. Progressive Produktion einer relativen Übervölkerung oder industriellen Reservearmee 657
    4. Verschiedene Existenzformen der relativen Übervölkerung 670

    Populationsgesetz der kapitalistischen Produktionsweise (meine Interpretation):

    Die Akkumulation benötigt ein *absolut* immer größeres, “atmendes” (Marx) Quantum an Lohnarbeitern und Arbeitslosen, *die durch den Akkumulationsprozeß selbst* produziert werden.

    Die steigende Produktivität (absoluter Mehrwert) in Landwirtschaft und Industrie ermöglicht die Versorgung einer beständig wachsenden Bevölkerung und damit wiederum einen beständig sich steigernden Akkumulationsprozess.

    Dies ist das absolute, allgemeine Gesetz der kapitalistischen Akkumulation: 674

    Je größer der gesellschaftliche Reichtum, das funktionierende Kapital, Umfang und Energie seines Wachstums, also auch die absolute Größe des Proletariats und die Produktivkraft seiner Arbeit, desto größer die industrielle Reservearmee. Die disponible Arbeitskraft wird durch dieselben Ursachen entwickelt wie die Expansivkraft des Kapitals. Die verhältnismäßige Größe der industriellen Reservearmee wächst also mit den Potenzen des Reichtums. Je größer aber diese Reservearmee im Verhältnis zur aktiven Arbeiterarmee, desto massenhafter die konsolidierte Übervölkerung, deren Elend im umgekehrten Verhältnis zu ihrer Arbeitsqual steht. Je größer endlich die Lazarusschicht der Arbeiterklasse und die industrielle Reservearmee, desto größer der offizielle Pauperismus. 673

    Populationsgesetz der kapitalistischen Produktionsweise:

    Die Akkumulation des Kapitals
    benötigt ein absolut immer größeres
    atmendes Quantum an Lohnarbeitern und Arbeitslosen,
    die durch den Akkumulationsprozeß selbst produziert werden.

    Die steigende Produktivität (absoluter Mehrwert) in Landwirtschaft und Industrie ermöglicht die Versorgung einer beständig wachsenden Bevölkerung und damit wiederum einen beständig sich steigernden Akkumulationsprozess.

    Ein absolutes Ende des Bevölkerungswachstums kann absehbar nicht bestimmt werden.

    Mal sehen, ob diese Gedanken ankommen oder verschwiegen werden.

  14. Jesse Callahan Bryant Avatar

    I guess I don’t understand the prescriptive portion of this. The population seems to be flattening off and rapidly declining in some of the most populated places on the planet. Programs to control “populations” in the past are typically seen retroactively as ethically dubious. It seems like the human species will adapt to new patterns of life, and it is indeed the anxiety felt by powerful people with the means to “manage” other humans that is where we’ve historically gotten off course. With anyone pointing to Marx in his revolutionary formulations and coupling it with personal anxiety around overpopulation and “the future” I’m going to come in with a lot of questions.

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